'This Week' Transcript 10-26-25: Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, Sen. Mark Kelly, Lt. Gen Doug Lute (Ret.) and Kathryn Bigelow

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 26 2025, on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: It is day 26 of the government shutdown as the president heads overseas, leaving the East Wing of the White House a pile of rubble. "THIS WEEK" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There have been many presidents in the past who have made their mark on this beautiful White House complex.

RADDATZ: Backlash over the destruction of the East Wing of the White House with no public notice.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This is the image Donald Trump doesn't want America to see.

RADDATZ: While federal workers miss their first full paycheck, sending some to local food banks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are a pawn in the game, and it's not fair.

RADDATZ: This as the president heads to Asia, set to meet China's President Xi. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent joins us to explain.

And --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We’re going to kill them, you know. They’re going to be, like, dead.

RADDATZ: President Trump sends a carrier battle group into the Caribbean after his strikes on suspected drug boats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don't think it's legal. I mean he’s acting in a manner of -- of war without the permission of -- of Congress.

RADDATZ: Senator Mark Kelly is here live to respond.

And nuclear thriller.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I’m going to need you to breathe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You’re talking about hitting a bullet with a bullet.

RADDATZ: Oscar-winning director Kathryn Bigelow's new movie "A House of Dynamite."

KATHRYN BIGELOW, 'A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE' DIRECTOR: It highlights the chaos, the helplessness and the confusion where there’s an incoming ICBM.

RADDATZ: Plus, Jonathan Karl on his new book “Retribution,” and our powerhouse roundtable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's "THIS WEEK." Here now Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ: Good morning, and welcome to "THIS WEEK."

President Trump has arrived in Malaysia as part of a multi-day trip through Asia. A meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping Thursday is aimed at securing a deal to end a months-long trade war that has upended the global economy. Closer to home, a deal to end the second longest government shutdown ever seems nowhere near the finish line. Democrats and Republicans dug in as federal workers, including the military, go without pay, and the health care premiums of millions of Americans are set to skyrocket.

Instead, the administration spent the week defending the complete demolition of the East Wing of the White House. The historic structure cleared out to make space for the president's long planned ballroom project funded by private donors. I'll speak in a moment with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. But first, this reporting from ABC's Jay O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAY O'BRIEN, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With no end in sight as the government shutdown drags into the start of its fourth week --

SEN. JOHN THUNE (D-SD): Why did Democrats instigate the longest full government shutdown in history?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Donald Trump and Republicans on Capitol Hill are nowhere to be found.

O’BRIEN (voice over): The pain of the gridlock keeps growing.

O’BRIEN: What would be your message to lawmakers back in Washington?

MAGGIE HISATAKE, MILITARY SPOUSE: Our families are struggling. And it's causing way too much stress and a burden on our families.

O’BRIEN (voice over): But President Donald Trump's focus this week far from Capitol Hill.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is an interior shot of the ballroom. I think there will be nothing like it.

O’BRIEN (voice over): The president plowing ahead on a White House demolition and ultimate overhaul, wrapping up his deadly strikes on suspected drug boats.

TRUMP: I don't think we’re going to necessarily ask for declaration of war. I think we’re just going to kill people that are bringing drugs into the country.

O’BRIEN (voice over): The president now sending a carrier strike group to the region brimming with firepower, a major escalation in an already lethal battle he says he’s waging against cartels.

But still some of the most stunning images this week coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the East Wing of the White House reduced to rubble to make way for President Trump's new ballroom, expected to cost some $300 million. Satellite images showing the before and after.

The administration defending the moves by pointing to previous White House renovations.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY This is the construction of the West Wing in 1902. Look at this, the construction of the West Terrace in 1902. These images look quite similar to what you and the American people are seeing today.

O’BRIEN (voice over): But historians say the scale is unprecedented.

MARK UPDEGROVE, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It's the demolition of a part of the White House. We haven't seen anything even remotely like this in the history of the White House.

O’BRIEN (voice over): All of it coming on the heels of another headline rippling through Washington. Sources confirming to ABC News, President Trump was pressing his Justice Department to pay him an unprecedented $230 million settlement for investigations he faced during the Biden administration and his first term in office.

And while Democrats demand Trump personally broker an end to the shutdown, the president now in Asia for a three country swing featuring a high-stakes meeting with China's president, as the two powers look to end their ongoing trade war.

But as President Trump tries to end one trade war, he’s ratcheting up another, announcing an additional 10 percent tariff rate on Canada after the province of Ontario produced it this commercial he claims misrepresented Ronald Reagan’s views on tariffs.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It’s a crooked ad.

O’BRIEN (voice over): A move the president said was done to “illegally influence the United States Supreme Court” just two weeks before arguments begin on the constitutionality of his sweeping tariffs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Jay.

I'm joined now by Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, who is traveling with the president in Malaysia.

And, Mr. Secretary, we know you have been meeting with the Chinese vice premier. President Trump will have a meeting with President Xi later this week. We have read this morning that you said there is a very successful framework in place now. Tell us about that, please.

TREASURY SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Thank you, Martha. Good to be with you.

So, this was the fifth meeting that I’ve had with my Chinese counterpart, the vice premier, He Lifeng, and we covered a wide range of issues. And I think we reached a substantial framework for the two leaders who will meet in Korea next Thursday.

So, you know, on the -- on the table, the president had given me maximum leverage when he threatened 100 percent tariffs if the Chinese impose their rare earth global export controls. So, I think we have averted that. So, the tariffs will be averted. And we have a regular meeting, regular quarterly meeting with the Chinese. It was scheduled for November 10th -- or before November 10th. I don't think we will have to have that.

So, we have been rolling the tariffs quarterly. So, we agreed on that. We also agreed on substantial agriculture purchases for U.S. farmers. We agreed that the Chinese would begin to help us with the precursor chemicals for this terrible fentanyl epidemic that's ravaging our country. So, I would say that it was a very good meeting overall.

RADDATZ: And -- and, of course, it's up to President Trump. But what kind of concessions were made, especially on these rare earth minerals?

BESSENT: I -- I'm not -- not sure what -- what you meant is they -- they had threatened to put a global export licensing regime, and I believe that they are going to delay that for a year while they reexamine it.

RADDATZ: This will be the first time that President Trump has met President Xi. He says they have a very good relation. But -- but we’ve also seen him say that about President Putin, and it didn't go so well. Why are you confident this will go better?

BESSENT: Well, this isn't the first time they met. This is the first time they met in -- in his second term. And I think the -- the purpose of the meeting for the past two days between myself and the vice premier was to make sure that they have a successful meeting. And based on this substantial framework from the past two days, I think that this could be a fantastic meeting between the two leaders and that they -- they do have a -- a very good relationship.

It's based on mutual respect. We’re the two largest economies and the two most powerful countries in the world. I have been in the Oval when the president is on -- on phone calls with President Xi, and they show each other great respect. They iron out their differences. And -- but I think that we have managed to pregame a lot of that in advance here in Kuala Lumpur. And, of course, the -- the meeting on Thursday will be at the APEC summit in Korea.

RADDATZ: I -- I did mean the second term. I know they have met before.

The president has also said he does want our farmers to be taken care of. You did mention that. China has been boycotting American soybeans and American farmers have really suffered. Do you see a real light at the end of the tunnel there, they may allow soybeans again?

BESSENT: Well, Martha, in case you don't know it, I’m actually a soybean farmer. So, I have -- I have felt this pain, too. And there are a couple of things happening here. One, the Chinese have substantially dropped their purchases to almost zero. So, they, unfortunately, have been using American farmers, who are amongst President Trump's biggest

supporters. I think he had more than 90 percent support. And then this was one of the biggest crops in 20 or 30 years. So, it was a perfect storm.

But I think we have addressed the farmer's concerns, and I'm not going to get ahead of the president, but I -- I believe when the announcement of the deal with China is made public, that our soybean farmers will feel very good about what's going on both for this season and the coming seasons for several years.

RADDATZ: And what more can you tell us about the additional 10 percent tariff on Canadian goods? Does it apply to goods that fall under the USMCA?

BESSENT: You know, Martha, I've been over here in Asia while all that went on. So, I can't give you any specifics on that.

RADDATZ: And today is day 26. I know you have been over there, but there has been a government shutdown here. People are suffering. Federal employees are starting to go to food banks.

Any light at the end of the tunnel on that? Should the president be meeting with Democrats again?

BESSENT: Well, what good does it do, Martha? They -- they've dug in. The American people are hostage to Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries’ poll numbers. Because what -- what's changed between now and the last time there was a clean continuing resolution is Chuck Schumer has tanked in the polls. The -- both of the two guys from Brooklyn, like I call them, are worried about being primary from the left.

Fifty-two Republican senators have voted 11 times to reopen the government. Three brave moderate Democrats have come across the aisle.

So, you know, I call on moderate Democratic senators to end this craziness. You'll be heroes -- because, Martha, what I can tell you is we managed to find the money at the in the middle of October to pay our, you know, brave service members, and I think we'll be able to do it on November 1st.

But we're going to be out of money on November 15th. And, you know, for our military not to get paid is a disgrace.

The other thing that's happening is this is starting to eat into the economy, starting to slow the economy. And we're also starting to see there's a problem with air traffic control. So, it's starting to slow down our nation's travel.

RADDATZ: But, Secretary Bessent, I should add that the president's party, your party controls the White House and both chambers of Congress. You don't think you bear any responsibility for this?

BESSENT: Martha, what can we do? What can we do for, you know, this desperate act that they -- you know, we can call on them to change their minds because I can tell you the $1.5 trillion in spending that they're that -- they've call -- that they're calling for -- the -- that's the -- that's not on the table.

We inherited a mess. We inherited the worst budget deficit to GDP. When we weren't in a recession and we weren't at war, it was 6.4, 6.5 percent. We've managed to bring that down to 5.9 percent. And we're not -- we're not going to let them be irresponsible with the budget again.

RADDATZ: Okay. Thanks for joining us this morning, Secretary Bessent. We appreciate it. Good luck over there.

BESSENT: Good. Good to see you, Martha.

RADDATZ: Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona joins me now in studio.

Good to see you, Senator.

Secretary Bessent said this shutdown could end if brave, moderate Democrats would stop this craziness.

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Well, let me tell you how this could end. So, just in less than a week, Americans are going to see their health care costs spike dramatically, going up 100, 200, 300 percent.

They know that. The president knows that. He said he wanted to do something about this. But as far as I could tell, he’s spent about one hour negotiating with Democrats on this issue. And now, he’s taken off on another trip overseas.

I think I heard the treasury secretary also say that this was about -- somehow about like the debt and deficit. Well, you’ve got to remember, in Trump’s big legislation, they added $4 trillion to the debt in order to give a big tax cut for wealthy people, like him, and like the president, and their wealthy friends, on the backs of the American people and what their health care is going to cost.

That’s why these premiums have gone away. They didn’t want it to be $6 trillion in debt. They wanted it to just be $4 trillion.

So, this is about the cost that people pay for their health care.

RADDATZ: But -- but, look, this week federal workers missed their first full paycheck. You’ve got federal workers going to food banks. The Democrats are dug in on this.

But how long can you let this go when you see these things happening, when you see SNAP payments going away for nearly a million Arizonans?

KELLY: We don’t want a shutdown, but let me -- let me tell you about it in Arizona. Let me tell you a story about a guy named Brent from Mesa. This guy worked in public safety for 34 years. He left that job.

Now he’s a substitute teacher. He gets his health care from the Affordable Care Act, from

the exchange. He pays $339 a month. That’s going to go up by $900. He’ll be paying over $1,100 a month for him and his wife. He can’t afford it. This guy has an autoimmune disease. He’s got lupus. This isn’t fair to him and the millions of American like him, though no fault of their own, are now facing these -- this huge spike in the cost of their health care. And --

RADDATZ: So -- so you’re saying you are not budging?

KELLY: We -- we -- we are fighting --

RADDATZ: Because of people like him? You are not budging?

KELLY: We are fighting for the American people. We’re fighting for the American people. And it’s easily solved. The president says he wants to deal with the costs of people health -- people’s health care. So, why doesn’t he get in the room with us and make Mike Johnson bring the Republican Congress back. What happened to those folks? They’ve been gone for over six weeks now on this extended summer vacation. He needs to get them back into Washington, get them in the room, we can have a serious discussion.

RADDATZ: Scott -- Scott Bessent said it wouldn’t do any good because of the Democrats.

KELLY: Well, he has no idea what he’s talking about.

RADDATZ: No idea?

KELLY: It would do some good. If we could -- if we could have a real negotiation about this and with the president, the president has spent one hour on this. How much time has he spent talking about his ballroom? His ballroom that he got all these folks and they’re going to probably get something out of it to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on this room that almost every single American taxpayer will never go in that room.

RADDATZ: Privately funding I guess we should add.

You voted against a Republican-sponsored bill that would have provided pay for some federal workers. Why?

KELLY: Well, we had another proposal to pay federal workers. The problem with that is, that legislation gave too much power to an OMB director, Russell Vought, that’s already out of control, and firing people, furloughing people, ending government agencies. That legislation would give that individual more control. It was ridiculous.

RADDATZ: Even if it would pay some federal workers.

KELLY: We -- we could have paid federal workers. We had legislation to do exactly that. Put it -- put it out there. It did not pass either. We’re looking for unanimous consent. Republicans blocked it.

RADDATZ: OK, I want to talk about Venezuela. The Pentagon is now sending a carrier strike group. You know the massive amount of firepower on a carrier strike group. What is your take on what is happening with these suspected drug boats. Is it legal?

KELLY: It’s questionable. And the White House and the Department of Defense could not give us a logical explanation on how this is legal. They were tying themselves in knots trying to explain this. We had a lot of questions for them, both Democrats and Republicans. It was not a good meeting. It did not go well. They have a secret list of 20 something -- 24 organizations that they have now authorized to use -- use kinetic action against without the normal approach that we have for law enforcement. Hey, we don’t want drugs in this country, especially fentanyl. But all these drugs, we -- we should be working really hard to interdict them and prosecute the individuals that are smuggling drugs, not putting young service members at great, legal --

RADDATZ: Isn’t that something that we have been doing, that maybe wasn’t working in a new approach?

KELLY: We haven’t been doing a good enough job.

RADDATZ: Do -- do you think --

KELLY: All the money that DHS currently has, put some of that money towards the Coast Guard to help them with this -- the process of, how do you interdict the -- interdict these drugs in the Caribbean.

By the way, those boats in the Caribbean do not carry fentanyl. Those routes are not used to traffic fentanyl to the United States. So, the whole story that this is about fentanyl that’s killing people is false.

RADDATZ: Have you seen evidence? Did they present evidence to you that these were drug boats, and, if so, what kind of drugs were on them?

KELLY: Yes.

RADDATZ: Yes, you were presented evidence? You’re convinced?

KELLY: We were -- we were -- we were presented some evidence that does not back up the story that the White House is telling to the American people.

RADDATZ: And -- and you mean just the fentanyl. But you believe there were drugs on those boats.

KELLY: Let me -- there were drugs on some of these boats, yes.

RADDATZ: Just -- just some of those boats. And he’s not going to make a declaration of war --

KELLY: We have evidence that there were drugs on some of these boats. But I don’t want to get into the details of which boats in which place and what was found. That was in a secure, in a SCIF.

RADDATZ: Understood.

KELLY: And some of that they want to keep -- they -- they want to keep that information away from the American people.

RADDATZ: Understood.

So, he has threatened an attack on land. We have just a -- a few seconds here. Do you think that will happen, and will those carriers --

KELLY: Well, I don’t know. That’s -- that’s a question for the White House. You don’t move a battlegroup all the way from where it was to the Caribbean unless you’re planning on either to intimidate the country, which is rather intimidating, or you're going to start conducting combat operations in Venezuela. And this doesn't make the United States more safe. This makes us less safe. I mean starting a war against Venezuela over what is a law enforcement action does not make any sense.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks for joining us this morning, Senator. Always great to see you.

KELLY: Thank you.

RADDATZ: Up next, a dramatic, cinematic take on what a nuclear strike attempt on the U.S. would look like. My conversation with "A House of Dynamite" director Kathryn Bigelow, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have we seen DEFCON 2 before?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this is real?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) is asking for launch instructions right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to need you to breathe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are talking about hitting a bullet with a bullet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Those are scenes from the powerful new Netflix film "A House of Dynamite" by Oscar-winning director Kathryn Bigelow who brought painstaking realism to her films "The Hurt Locker" and "Zero Dark Thirty." It's perhaps easy to forget that we still live in the nuclear age with thousands of nuclear weapons capable of hitting America.

This new film reminds us just how fragile the system of deterrence is, dependent on imperfect technology and human judgment. And as Bigelow reminds us, with the president having final and sole authority for any kind of nuclear launch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you see that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On it.

RADDATZ (voice-over): The premise is dark. A nuclear missile origin unknown heading to the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the situation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a rare missile launch, indications of Pacific theater. The video is standard on national security conference.

BIGELOW: I was curious what would happen in the halls of power and military industrial complex if a nuclear ICBM was headed to North America. What is the protocol? What's the procedure?

RADDATZ: It's just 18 minutes until impact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sergeant, you're doing fine. We trained for this a million times. You're good.

RADDATZ: And "A House of Dynamite" takes the action to all of the key players.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have weapons released authority to launch our GBIs.

RADDATZ: From the missile defense post in Fort Greely, Alaska, as they attempt to take out the incoming missile.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Negative impact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Object remains inbound.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did everything (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thing right.

RADDATZ: To strategic command headquarters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the circumstances. A little more than seven minutes, we will lose the city of Chicago.

RADDATZ: To the White House Situation Room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have instructions to physically escort you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go, go, go.

RADDATZ: And alongside the president when he is rushed to safety to face the unfathomable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you make of all this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're running the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Pentagon.

BIGELOW: I feel like our world has become more combustible and vulnerable. It was really important to look at it in real time. And by the time it gets to the president, he has only minutes to make a decision.

And in this country, he is the sole authority. He is the sole decisionmaker.

ELBA: This is insanity. Okay?

TRACY LETTS AS GENERAL ANTHONY BRODY: No, sir. This is reality.

BIGELOW: When you're doing a subject like this, you need to be as realistic as possible. It's not a documentary. But we wanted to shoot it like a documentary.

RADDATZ (voice-over): One of the technical advisors on the film, retired Lieutenant General Dan Karbler, commanded the U.S. Army's space and missile defense.

RADDATZ: When you look at the film in total, it's feasible in your eyes. Everything that happened in there could happen?

LT. GEN. DAN KARBLER (RET.), “A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE” TECHNICAL ADVISER: It's very feasible.

ELBA: I had one briefing when I was sworn in. One. And they told me that's the protocol.

HARRIS: They told me the same thing.

ELBA: I got a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whole (EXPLETIVE DELETED) briefing on when a Supreme Court justice dies.

Replacements. Replace them for what happens if the replacement drops out. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). What to do if the -- if the original guy crawls out of his grave and wants his job back.

RADDATZ: In one of the scenes where we have the president, that the person he's listening to most is the guy who carries the football who's a -- is a young navy commander.

JONAH HAUER-KING AS ROBERT REEVES: Along with enemy casualty estimates, where would you like to begin, sir?

RADDATZ: That's who he's left with.

BIGELOW: Right.

RADDATZ: That's reality.

BIGELOW: Right. And that also that process is never rehearsed -- very rarely rehearsed.

KARBLER: So, the last president to actually sit through one of the exercises was President Reagan. And since then, no president has sat through a nuclear decision exercise.

RADDATZ: What did happen? How did that happen?

KARBLER: Well, you know, I honestly can't blame a president for not wanting to sit through one for this reason. Word is going to get out about what that president's decision was. They're not going to win that either.

So, I think that a president not participating in it gives a little bit of decision space politically to that particular president.

RADDATZ (voice-over): While the military practices hundreds of times for these possibilities, there are things that cannot be rehearsed.

NEAL BLEDSOE AS HUSBAND BEN: What's going on there?

REBECCA FERGUSON AS OLIVIA WALKER: I'll call you. I love you. I love you. Can you kiss Liam for me? Just kiss him.

RADDATTZ: When you practice those scenarios, the humanity in those exercises isn't exercised, right?

KARBLER: It -- it's not. It's not. And that's why the movie so beautifully captures the human element.

BIGELOW: Well, it was important to make them people because I find that the audiences are asking themselves, what would I do? But also, it reminds us what's at stake. Humanity is what's at stake.

RADDATZ: Is there a way to describe how you think you want that to sit with people when they leave that theater?

BIGELOW: I think in a perfect world, it would be a kind of call to action and certainly a call to conversation. The film kind of presents a question and then the audience is free to answer it. What world do we want to live in?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: And our thanks to Kathryn Bigelow and her team. I first met her when she directed “The Hurt Locker” and I was covering the Iraq War.

So, she reached out to me to help her find technical advisers for “A House of Dynamite”. I introduced her to our ABC News contributor, retired Lieutenant General Doug Lute, who spent years in the White House as a deputy national security adviser, was director of operations at the joint staff at the Pentagon, and served as NATO ambassador.

He joins us now from New York.

Good morning, Ambassador Lute.

You helped guide Bigelow and her team --

LT. GEN. DOUG LUTE (RET.), ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning.

RADDATZ: -- through this scenario.

I assume you agree with General Karbler that this is a feasible plot.

LUTE: It's both feasible and disturbing because I think it reminds us that this system of nuclear deterrence which we've all lived under for more than 70 years remains fragile.

RADDATZ: And one of the most alarming things we hear in the movie is the secretary of defense character being told they have about 60 percent odds of successfully intercepting the missile. A coin toss basically.

“Bloomberg” reported that an internal Pentagon talking points memo in response to the movie says that today's interceptors have displayed 100 percent accuracy in testing for more than a decade. What does that mean to you?

LUTE: Well, first of all, I think we should all remember, there's a big gap between the results created by tests which are carefully orchestrated and so forth, and the results we can expect in real combat.

And then second, I don't know of a single technological system that is perfect with 100 percent accuracy. And remember, in this case, Martha, we're talking about literally a bullet needing to hit a bullet.

RADDATZ: You know, you said nuclear deterrence has worked for 70 years, but nine nations now have nuclear weapons. Only three are part of NATO.

So the world has really changed in those 70 years. You look at North Korea, it's very different now.

LUTE: Well, that's right. I mean, the world is increasingly, I think, unstable, and unpredictable. And I think the movie is a very healthy reminder that the system of deterrence that has served us well may be challenged in new ways, that has not been the case in the last 70 years.

RADDATZ: And the last remaining Arms Control Agreement that restricts the number of weapons in the U.S. and Russia is due to expire in a few months.

LUTE: That's right. I mean, the last bilateral agreement between the Russian Federation and the United States expires just after the first of the year. And that's an important part of it -- of the deterrence equation because it restricts the number of nuclear weapons that are inside this deterrence regime.

RADDATZ: And again, the president with the sole decision-making power has not really had any great number of rehearsals on this, when you look at that element of it.

LUTE: Well, look, no president has in practice actually faced the critical, life-changing decision of using a nuclear weapon or not. But I think the American people can feel confident that there's a system of competent people beneath the president, those manning the early warning systems, those convening the decision makers in the event of a crisis, those ultimately manning our response forces, nuclear-equipped bombers, missiles and submarines. They can be confident that that system is in place.

But look, the system is imperfect. It is imperfect by way of technology, but it is also a perfect by way of human judgment and the potential for miscalculation.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks so much for joining us Ambassador Lute, a really compelling film.

Up next, we're just nine days until the final voting in key elections in New York, New Jersey, and Virginia. The Roundtable takes that on when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: While my opponents in this race have brought hatred to the forefront, this is just a glimpse of what so many have to endure every day across this city.

I will not change who I am, how I eat, or the faith that I am proud to call my own.

ANDREW CUOMO (I), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: New Yorkers are not Islamophobic. And New Yorkers have no tolerance whatsoever for discrimination.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: New York City mayoral candidates Zohran Mamdani and Andrew Cuomo this week addressing charges of Islamophobia in the campaign. The roundtable will discuss that and more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: And we are back with the roundtable.

Former DNC chair Donna Brazile, columnist for “The Free Press,” Charles Lane, “SCOTUSblog” editor Sarah Isgur, and former Trump White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus.

Good morning to you all.

Donna, let’s just go back to the shutdown.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

RADDATZ: Things have been a big blame game. Democrats blaming Republicans. Republicans blaming Democrats. But things are really different now. Federal workers didn't get their full paycheck on Friday.

BRAZILE: That’s right.

RADDATZ: SNAP benefits being pulled as of November in places. So, does this change the calculus, do you believe?

BRAZILE: Look, when Democrats gave Republicans the lifeline back in the spring to keep the government open, they did so with this caveat, we want to be at the table, we want to discuss health care, we want to make sure that the American people can afford their gas, their food, et cetera. Republicans decided to go along. They passed a big beautiful ugly bill that really will decimate our healthcare system. And, of course, they are passing appropriations bill without Democrats. Democrats are saying, we want to be in the process, we want this to be bipartisan, bring us to the table. They’ve been in town waiting for Mike Johnson and the Republicans to come back. And, meanwhile, Donald Trump is overseas, which is OK, but I think Lisa Murkowski is absolutely right, Donald Trump needs to reconvene the Democrats and Republican leaders and get the deal done.

RADDATZ: And, Reince, we heard what Scott Bessent said, what good would it do. But don't you have to talk?

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think they will. And I think when President Trump comes back, he’s going to do exactly what Donna is talking about, which is bringing people together. I think he wants to do that.

But the ultimate truth here is that the Democrats drove themselves into a cul-de-sac on this issue. They’re -- they’re -- they’re voting down a bill that Chuck Schumer wrote, same

spelling, same grammar, same bill, voted for it four times, and now wants the Republicans to eat $1.5 trillion in spending for three weeks of time.

It -- the whole thing is ridiculous. It's confusing to people. A lot of people don't get it. And something has to happen.

RADDATZ: Something has to happen at some point.

And something did happen this week, Sarah. We lost the East Wing of the White House. Optics are pretty bad on all of that. But when you look at the legal process, did they do it correctly?

SARAH ISGUR, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, this looks just fine. I mean, good grief. Of all the problems we have in this country, this should not rank in the top 100. Presidents have always renovated the White House. The White House, as you know, hasn't had a convening space. That's why they've had to keep bringing in --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: But, Sarah, you heard Mark Updegrove. Nothing like this has happened to this scale.

ISGUR: The Oval Office as we know it is less than a hundred years old. This idea that everything that sort of we've seen in TV has always been just isn't true. The White House has always been a work in progress.

It's needed a large space for events. So, we're going to have one.

If Barack Obama had done this, Republicans would be losing their minds. Donald Trump is doing it, Democrats are losing theirs.

RADDATZ: Chuck, what do you think?

CHARLES LANE, THE FREE PRESS COLUMNIST: Well, I think it's -- it's pretty extraordinary how big this thing is going to be.

RADDATZ: Ninety thousand square feet.

LANE: So, I actually --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: It will dwarf the actual White House.

LANE: I think the optics are bad of the destruction. But I think to my mind, what's really striking here is how big the new thing is going to be. And that's where you would have thought maybe let's put a little more planning into this, get a few other people's ideas. But this is just Trump's project.

RADDATZ: And just to Sarah's point here though -- I mean, Sarah says, you know, what's the big deal? But a lot of focus on this week and clearly the White House was a bit concerned about this.

LANE: Well, they had -- they had their old pictures of the gut renovation that Truman had done. They were -- they were -- they were definitely sent scrambling for the history books to come up with their rationale.

ISGUR: To your point, Martha, those are things the White House should have done in advance of the construction project, not scrambling after. No question.

BRAZILE: But also, they told us it was $200 million. Now it's $300 million. They say it was going to be this, and now, it's that.

Look, I'm all for renovation, but I wish we had more people looking at it to ensure that this is done right.

The second thing is, and that's the reason why you have all these historic societies that look at the preservation, but this is Trump's vanity project. This is a metaphor of the Trump administration, demolition. Just tear it all down and build something beautiful.

PRIEBUS: Well, it's not -- but you know, this is where the Democrats are playing games. They keep talking about the demolition, demolition zone of the White -- this isn't the White House, okay? Less than 1 percent I think of the American people --

RADDATZ: It’s the East Wing of the White House, right.

PRIEBUS: It is not the White House itself. And Democrats are trying to confuse the two spaces.

Most people couldn't name one single thing about the East Wing of the White House, other than walking through it, you don't even know what's in there.

I mean, it is -- I worked in the White House. I've been there lots of times. Three times in the last 10 days.

How many times I've been to the East Wing? Maybe like three times.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: It’s the gateway for the tourists.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: All right. I’m going to move on from the East Wing of the White House or the White House itself and go to big elections coming up in Virginia, in New Jersey, the governor's race.

PRIEBUS: Yeah.

RADDATZ: Let's talk first about Virginia, what's going on there. We have Abigail Spanberger, the Democrat. She seems to have a little bit of a lead in the polls.

PRIEBUS: Yes.

RADDATZ: How tight a race will that be running against the current lieutenant governor.

PRIEBUS: Well, I mean, look, I think it's an uphill climb for Winsome Sears and the reason is because the early vote in Virginia has been going on for a month and early vote was had been going on for a long time before the Jay Jones scandal even broke. This is the attorney general candidate that made threats online to kill the speaker and their kids. And that's had a toll on the race.

So the question is whether or not there are going to be enough election day voters in Virginia to make up for the huge advantage that the Democrats have in Virginia.

What -- New Jersey though is maybe even more interesting. If you listen to Ciattarelli talk today, he's talking about putting criminals in jail. He's talking about sanctuary cities. He's taking the Trump rhetoric with these unaffiliated voters in New Jersey and seeing if it can stick just like it stuck for Trump. Even though Harris only got 52 percent of the vote, it was a close race.

RADDATZ: Okay. Okay, you jumped ahead to New Jersey as well. So, Donna, let me come at you for both of those races.

BRAZILE: Well --

RADDATZ: Mikie Sherrill there in New Jersey.

BRAZILE: I -- well, that's a close race, but I also think that she's been able to tie her opponent to Donald Trump and especially that infrastructure project up in -- up in New York, up in northern New Jersey, the Gateway Project.

I think it's going to come down to turnout. We know that New Jersey has some issues. We saw that two -- a year ago with Donald Trump picking up at least six percentage of the vote. So that’s a turnout game.

In Virginia, you know, Mr. Jones, had he said those -- had we understood what he said, he never would have won the Democratic primary. He apologized, something that Republicans don't do. I still believe that Abigail Spanberger is a strong candidate and she will lift the ticket up.

RADDATZ: And Chuck, what -- these are very important races. They're really a barometer because of the first races since Donald -- the general election races since Donald Trump became president. So, how concerned are Democrats about this race?

LANE: I think they're -- from everything I've seen, they feel confident about both states and probably should. Although I think New Jersey is more of a crapshoot because, as the other guests have been saying, it has trended a little bit toward Trump in the last election.

The one that I think the Democrats should be worried about is attorney general in Virginia, where Jay Jones' remarks have really sunk his polls. Fortunately for him, a lot of people had already voted. But I think it's going to be considered kind of a bad night for Democrats if that attorney general race goes to the Republicans in Virginia.

RADDATZ: And Sarah, I want to turn to the mayoral race, if we can, here -- here in New York City. Finally, I guess, Hakeem Jeffries endorsed Mamdani. What are you seeing there in the mayoral race? What does it mean when you look at that?

ISGUR: So this to me is actually all about the midterms for Democrats. And I think that's what you're seeing in Jeffries waiting so long to endorse Mamdani. They're deeply concerned that this race will go to him and that it will just be an anchor on the Democratic Party. Because let's be clear, expectations are everything in races like this.

So when we're talking about Virginia and New Jersey, those are blue states. Democrats can't just win them. They need to win them by quite a bit to show that this is a Trump effect that can carry them through the midterms. And when you have potentially someone so polarizing winning that New York Mayor's race, I think they're very, very concerned that this will be every ad in the midterm elections. You know, Democrats will run Donald Trump, Republicans will run Mamdani.

RADDATZ: And Donna, no doubt it is a polarizing race.

BRAZILE: No question about it, but let me just say this. What I like about this campaign is that this is old versus new. OK? Eric Adams just endorsed Cuomo. And then, of course, Mr. Jeffries endorsed Mr. Mamdani. This is about -- this is about a new generation of --

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: -- of -- this is a new generation of New Yorkers who are sick and tired of not being able to afford the quality of life. He is running on a platform of affordability. And if that's the future of American politics where candidates can deliver, then we'll see.

RADDATZ: Reince, I have one quick question. Steve Bannon says that Donald Trump will be running again for a third term. Yes or no?

(LAUGH)

PRIEBUS: Steve Bannon is the best at getting a lot of press. So --

(LAUGH)

RADDATZ: OK, well, we'll take that as a no. All right. Thanks, guys. Great to see you.

Up next, Jon Karl on his new book, "Retribution." We're back in a moment.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am your warrior. I am your justice. And I took a lot of heat for this one, but I only mean it in the proper way. For those who have been wronged and betrayed, of which there are many people out there that have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: That was candidate Donald Trump launching his re-election campaign in 2023 with his signature theme. And this week the brand-new book "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America" comes out, written by our "THIS WEEK" co-anchor Jonathan Karl.

The book has fascinating new details about Trump's historic political comeback and what he has done since, and we asked Jon about that makeover of the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: The East Wing has been demolished before our eyes. This after paving over of a big section of the Rose Garden. All the changes he's done to the colonnade, to the -- to the Oval Office, all the gold in the Cabinet room. He is transforming the physical property of the White House complex, but he is also transforming the country.

Think about what he has done in terms of the power of the presidency this time around. He has come in, he has used executive orders beyond anybody's wildest imagination. Congress is largely irrelevant to Trump in the second term, even though it's a Republican Congress.

RADDATZ: And your book obviously is titled "Retribution." What part does retribution play in his overall approach to being president this time?

KARL: Retribution is central to what Trump is doing. And I traced through his rise from leaving the White House in many ways a pariah, even to leaders in the Republican Party, and how he came back fending off all those criminal investigations, all the indictments, the trial in New York. He faced a presidential campaign where he was either going to win and become arguably the most powerful president of our lifetime, or he was going to lose and face the very real possibility of going to jail.

That experience of facing that down, of sitting in that courtroom in New York, of fending off those indictments in those three other jurisdictions made him hell-bent on revenge if he was going to get back.

RADDATZ: You talk about the investigation. Certainly there was one in January 6th. You have a fascinating document that will go down in history for sure.

KARL: Mike Pence's notes, handwritten notes that he took in the morning of January 6th about his phone call with Donald Trump. Remember, Donald Trump was trying to get him to overturn the presidential election, and he recounts what Trump says in the conversation and what he says in the conversation, and Trump says at one point, according to the notes, "I made a big mistake five years ago when I chose you as my running mate."

And by the way, there's one thing, if you zoom in on the notes, you see what looks like a sad face or an angry face emoji. And that's where he writes that Trump said, "You listen to the wrong people," and Pence writes -- says back, according to his notes, "I listen to my heart and my mind."

RADDATZ: Jon, when you talk about retribution, also it's not just retribution that you've reported on, that you've seen, that we've all seen, and one thing that sticks in my mind a lot, you talked to Steve Bannon about this and have new reporting on this, is the meeting between Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, and Marco Rubio was in the room and others, and President Zelenskyy from Ukraine. Steve Bannon had a conversation with him just before that meeting.

KARL: Yes. This is fascinating. Of course, one of the most extraordinary meetings we ever saw in the Oval Office between a president and a foreign leader, really any meeting of any kind. What I learned is before that earlier in the week Donald Trump was having a meeting with his top national security people. They were going to sign a minerals deal, a natural resources deal where Ukraine was going to share its natural resources with the United States as payment for helping fend off the Russian invasion.

But look, Trump was not happy with Zelenskyy and not happy with where his national security team was going on this. So, he asks his national security advisor to get Steve Bannon on the phone. Bannon for the next half hour is basically lecturing Trump's national security team about Zelenskyy. He calls him that punk.

If you sign this agreement with Zelenskyy, that punk is going to want security guarantees. I don't like it. I don't like it. And Trump is kind of egging him on and having him say all of this. And then of course, days later, we saw what happened in the Oval Office with Trump and Zelenskyy.

RADDATZ: I want to talk a little bit more about where Donald Trump goes from here. Where does he go with his retribution now?

KARL: Look, Donald Trump is already the most consequential president of my lifetime. He has amassed power by being, first of all, the sole voice of the Republican Party. And there is no real opposition within the party. And he's empowered by an immunity decision by the Supreme Court.

He feels that he can do anything, and the focus of his attention in almost everything he does is getting even, getting retribution. So, I think there's a lot more to go, but Trump is going to go one by one after the people that he perceives as his enemies.

RADDATZ: Can he sustain this for three plus more years? Can he sustain this sort of energy that he derives from this retribution?

KARL: There are many things that are surprising about Donald Trump. I mean, to me, one is just his energy. I mean, the guy almost never sleeps. I recount in the book talking to him on the phone sometimes before seven in the morning, sometimes after 10 at night. And I know he's talking to people between those two times.

He has this boundless energy for a guy who is in his late 70s that is frankly remarkable. And I don't think he is going to slow down as long as he is physically able to continue. He wants to change things. He wants to make a mark, a mark far beyond that he -- whatever he did in his first term.

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Jon Karl. His book "Retribution" is out on Tuesday. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: And that's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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